Rozworld’s WebLog

I live for moments like these. Anytime a religious nut knocks on my door, I’ll go out and talk to them if I have time. I do this to not only understand where they’re coming from but mainly because I care about the truth. Last summer a Jehovah’s Witness and her 10 year old son came to my door and I talked to them. The boy looked like he didn’t wanted to be there and that’s the unfortunate part of all this. Last Saturday two young LDS Mormon men came to my door wearing black overcoats, white shirts, and ties. These guys generally work in pairs so that they can back each other up. The conversation was very civil and congenial. I wanted to record the discourse in a blog entry. I am paraphrasing here but the dialogue went something like this.

All: [Greet each other.]
William: “You’re Mormons right?”
Mormons: [Together they nod.] “Yes”
Mormon #1: [Takes out his Book of Mormon and reads a passage. He speaks at some length and I carefully listen. His main theme was “apostasy”, or the fits of human society that tend to go away from “God’s ideal” and then come back. (After some hindsight I think they were implying that the Mormon Church was the latest answer to the apostasy.)] “Adam was taught God’s word and ever since then there has been a falling way…”
William: “There is not a single truth statement in what you said.”
Mormon #1: Looking stunned.
Mormon #1: “Do you know what a prophet is?”
William: “No, go ahead. Let me hear your definition.”
Mormon #1: “I detect the sarcasm in your voice. A prophet is … [You fill in the blanks here]”
William: “Primitive people invented religion. First people believed in animism, i.e. that things had spirits. From this came polytheism. From polytheism came monotheism. The Egyptians invented monotheism.“
Mormon #1: “Yes. That’s what we’re talking about (apostasy).”
William: “Let me ask you something. Did you both grow up in a Mormon household?”
Mormons: “Yes”
William: “Have you ever practiced another religion? Have you ever practiced Islam?”
Mormon #1: [Shakes his head]
William: “Then how do you know what the truth is, if you have not tried another religion? I can go to the Middle East and ask a Muslim, who goes on the Hajj and prays 7 times a day, is God not great? And he will say ‘Yes!’ Who do I believe you or the Muslim? You can go to each one of these houses and they will tell you something different.”
Mormon #1: “Have you read the Koran? The book of Mormon? You just have to make up your mind and pray on it.”
William: “I have read the Koran. I have read parts of the Book of Mormon but it’s mostly unreadable”
Mormon #2: “We’re not here to try and (convert you to Mormonism)”
William: “You’re here to persuade.”
William: (Sarcastic tone) “What do you think about the Old Testament? Do you think that is incomplete and so God started thinking, Hmm I think I’ll create the New Testament? But no, that wasn’t complete. I think I’ll pick Joseph Smith to write the Book of Mormon. Why didn’t he just write the whole darn thing in the beginning and be done with it?”
Mormon #2: “These are all very good questions. [God] wants us to learn. How else would you teach a child?”
William: “Let me ask you something. Isn’t through God all things possible?”
Mormon #2: “Why, yes it is!”
William: “Then why go through all the trouble, why jump through all the hoops?”

Mormon #1: [Opens his Book of Mormon and reads some passage about the Mormon Faith growing like a seed.]
William: “Isn’t that like the parable of the mustard seed?”
Mormon #1: “Yes it is!”
William: “Well then why say it again? That’s plagiarism.”
Mormons: [No response to this comment.]
William: “I hate to tell you this but Joseph Smith was a convicted felon.”
Mormon #2: “(The scripture) says he would be prosecuted.”
William: “Yeah, kind of like Jesus, no one liked what he had to say. He was a 1st century Hippie!”
Mormons: [Chuckle at this comment.]
William: “Do you really believe that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel? Isn’t that kind of offensive? You need evidence for that.”
Mormon #2: “I don’t find that offensive, why is that offensive?”
William: “Because they have a separate history independent of Israel. Genetic studies conclude that Native Americans came from Asia.”
Mormon #2: “I’ve actually heard of studies that say something different.”
William: “There’s no Archeological evidence for that. Their history goes back 15 thousand years in the Americas.”
Mormons: [Notable silence (No response)]
William: “Well if you go back far enough, we’re all related out of Africa.”
Mormons: [Nod in agreement.]
William: “The only way to know anything for sure is through science and the scientific method.”
Mormon #2: “Ok, so you can’t prove our [religion] with evidence. We believe science and religion are compatible. Well we could go back and forth forever.”
William: “Well, it was nice talking to you.”
Mormon #1: [Starts pulling out a copy of the Book of Mormon to give to me.] “Here do you have one of these?”
William: “Yeah, I think we have one of those inside. Thanks.”
Mormon #2: “Ok”
William: “Are you guys from around here?”
Mormon #1: “We’re from Utah.”
William: “I’ve been through Salt Lake. Welcome to Wisconsin.”
Mormon #1: “Have you seen the Temple?”
William: “No, I was just passing through. Have you been overseas? I mean, you two specifically?”
Mormon #1: “Yes. [For now] we’ve been given Wisconsin and the U.P. as our mission. So we’re use to the winters here. Have you heard of them [the missions]?”
William: [I am getting cold at this point] “Yes, I have. Well I have to go. Good luck.”
Mormon #1: [Leaving] “Keep reading the Book (of Mormon)”

Here are some pictures from Hillary’s visit to the Monona Terrace in Madison. It was a packed house with around 5000 people on attendance.

I’d just like to compare and contrast Hillary’s vs. Obama’s speech during their Madison visits. I am paraphrasing here.

Obama – “Join the Peace corp.”
Hillary – “If you put in one year of National service we will give you 10 thousand dollars towards higher education… we will also forgive your debt.“

Obama – “George Bush and Dick Cheney are not on the ticket, but the Bush-Cheney war and the Bush-Cheney tax cuts are on the ticket.”
Hillary - “George Bush had no intention of withdrawing from Iraq. He’s leaving it for the next president to deal with. That’s why if I get into the presidency I will pull together the pentagon, and top National advisers to begin drawing up a plan for withdrawal. Within 60 days I will begin withdrawing troops. Iraqi’s need to start taking responsibility for their own country.”

They both mentioned John McCain’s comment about being in Iraq for the next hundred years.

They both mentioned progressive politics and it coming from Wisconsin.

She mentioned “Green Jobs” and a win-win solution for auto makers and workers. She mentioned Global Warming several times during the speech and forming a pact with other countries that goes beyond Kyoto. She mentioned investment into clean technologies and research. She also mentioned taking subsidies away from the oil companies so as to not to pad their record profits.

My favorite part of Hillary’s speech was when she talked about being a “Leader in the Global community” and bringing real diplomacy back to this country. “The end of Cowboy diplomacy is near.”

I felt like Obama’s stump speech was much more broad and vague. He talked about “Hope” and “Change” a lot. Whereas Hillary’s speech gave many more specifics. Her speech was all over the place and covered more issues.

I know Obama would make a good president but I believe on the issues, Hillary Clinton would make a better one. That is why I am endorsing Clinton.

I went to Hillary Clinton’s rally at the Monona Terrace Convention Center in Madison Wisconsin and got some really nice pictures and video of almost the whole speech. It was a big crowd of around 5 thousand people. I arrived somewhat early and stood only about 15 feet from the podium. After the speech I got to shake her hand as she went around. I got to talk to her. I said, “Fight for good science”. She then looked at me wide-eyed and pointed and said, “Thank you”. I noticed there were many more women and not as many student supporters there, as compared to the Obama rally. It was a very stirring speech and she said many things that were important to me. The video below is part 1 of 4. The rest can be found on YouTube. I’ll post another blog with pictures soon.

Barack Obama was in Madison at the Kohl Center tonight and Jean, Rosalind and I went and saw him. We waited in line for quite sometime but it paid off because I got only about 30 feet from the podium. I took some nice pictures of Barack and captured his whole speech on video. I’ll post some pictures in another entry but here is part 2 of 4 of his speech. The rest can be found on YouTube.

Another Beyond Belief conference has come and gone. The central theme for this one was the Enlightenment, both in its history and whether or not we can ever have a second enlightenment. Some excellent lectures here. My favorites were from Jonathan Haidt and Patricia Churchland. Their talks about the sociological and neuropsychological basis of religion really made sense. The whole disagreement between Scott Atran and Sam Harris made for interesting moments.

http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief2/

I just think this is the coolest idea. Carl Sagan once called science “A Candle light in the dark”. So this is a start in making that glow a little brighter. Now we can have a double tall mocha with whipped cream with that enlightening talk on solar neutrinos and nano technology. Now why didn’t I think of that!

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/12/science_cafe

Obama was in town today and a large crowd rallied around him at the Monona Terrace. Although I didn’t go and see him, he did stop in the neighborhood at one of our acquaintance’s house for a party that charged $500 a head. I just have not been caught up with all the Obama fervor yet. I’ve been sort of disillusioned by all his religious rhetoric - maybe I’ll go and see him when he runs again in 2016.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=186×22564

I did go and see Christopher Hitchen’s at the FFRF 30th annual convention this last weekend at the Monona Terrace. Hitchen’s was receiving the “Emperor Has No Clothes” Award and then stuck around for a talk and book signing. The talk started out fairly well enough but descended from there. The low point came when Hitchen’s suggested bombing Iran, etc. This didn’t sit well with the peace loving folks at the convention. I think we sat there stunned but that’s what Hitchen’s likes to do. I did get about half of the talk uploaded to YouTube and surprisingly it’s been a big hit. I’ve had about 1400+ hits on part1 in the last 48 hours! - Part of this is because I found out that Prof. PZ Myers of Pharyngula fame featured my videos on his blog.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/10/hitchens_at_ffrf.php

I’ve watched all the Democrat and Republican Presidential debates on YouTube thus far and I’d have to say that I have not been impressed with any of the front-runners. Every candidate has been lack luster in the extreme. Bill Richardson has been the only candidate that I can’t seem to disagree with on any point. So it was gratifying when I saw this article in Wired Online that really pushes all the right buttons for me:

Hillary Clinton Stands Up for Science, Slams Bush

MORE http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/10/clinton_science

The documentary film titled “The War” by Ken Burns aired on PBS these last two weeks. It’s a fascinating 15+ hour story of America’s perspective and participation in World War II. It starts at Pearl Harbor and goes until the end of the War with the G.I.s adjusting to post war America. Jean and I watched all of it and found most of it gripping and intense. What makes this film so different from many of the “Hitler” channel’s shows of WWII was the reverse role of the players in story telling. Instead of the war being told from the perspective of elitists of government or from the generals, “The War” is told around the stories recounted from the actual G.I.s from 4 different American cities. These cities include Waterbury, Connecticut; Mobile, Alabama; Sacramento, California; and Luverne, Minnesota.

“The War” opens with the quote, “There are no good wars, only necessary wars.” One of the good things about this film was that it made us think of the WWII veterans that we personally know. It gives us some perspective on what they had to endure, but we will never really know. The other thought I had while I watched, was what an profound impact WWII had on the economy and social ideology of this country ever since. For instance, just think of all the military contactors that sprung up from ordinary business to fill the orders of war equipment. There are a lot of companies that exist today that know the fact that war is good for profits. Ever since the war there has always been a huge industry to sell and manufacture weapons.

Some of my favorite parts include:
The countless stories of tragedy and courage. One such story was of the marine platoon advancing in the dark on a south pacific island, when they hear a single gun shot. They all stop and dig in. Then they start to hear the moans of someone up ahead. The groans grow more intense and last all night. The man telling the story explains that he wished the guy would just shut up and die. When morning comes they discover that the man in pain was a marine who accidentally shot himself and that he had died in the night. Not only that, but it was the story teller’s best friend. The irony of war is raw with this sort of grit.

Then there is the story of a Native American soldier who has to accomplish four tasks in order to become a War Chief among his people, the Crow of the plains. The tasks were to lead a war party, to touch a living enemy, take away an enemy’s weapon, and to steal enemy horses. He accomplished all of these against the Nazi army.

The quotes by General George S. Patton left me laughing. He really was a colorful man and an awesome military genius. “Some men can shoot, some men can run. If you can shoot and run, you and Napoleon are pissin’ through the same straw.” or “Italy is like a boot, you have enter it from the top, like Hannibal did.”

I just have a couple criticisms about the film. One was that the segments that I found easy to get away for breaks were the stories from the home front. These are no doubt an important part of the story during the war, but I found them slow against the backdrop of conflict.
Another issue I have is with the whimsical music that was distractingly played during some of the more serious and tragic scenes.

Other than these couple things, I highly recommend this masterpiece of documentary film making. Thank you Mr. Burns!